Can academies promote without it being a specific instructor promoting?
2 month(s) ago • 1053 views • 25 replies
Am I really in minority thinking that only instructors and not academies can promote people? Or are everyone just afraid to get revenge voted or just have an over all reluctance to place any down votes, even if they agree that "the validity of the profile information and/or belt history" should be disputed in that a belt history stating an academy as the "Promoted by"-entity is incorrect? I was just revenge voted by this fellow https://www.beltchecker.c[...]hp?id=5362 on the issue. There are some similar points here to the "Lineage Erased?"-thread (https://www.beltchecker.c[...]ctedmenu=1). Of course, you can be disowned by an academy or team, which happened to instructor's instructor's instructor Hermes Franca, although I don't think it went so far as to Liborio and ATT claiming that any promotions that Franca would ever give out would be invalidated. Franca apparently promoted Pellegrino at the academy ATT Jupiter (in Florida), which shortly thereafter was no longer allowed to be ATT Jupiter and ATT leadership was obviously not ok with ATT Jupiter doing any BB promotions at all. So wouldn't that complicate things if Pellegrino claimed "Promoted by: ATT Jupiter"? Also, claiming an academy as "Promoted by" is really non transparent. How do we even know if the academy's main instructor was involved or ok with the promotion? Or who the main instructor was, years after the academy has disappeared from the face of the earth? The academy might even get entirely new management, who neither know of previous promotions nor see any reason to officially recognize them. Is there really any reason at all to be "Promoted by" an academy and not an instructor, besides obfuscating and/or for an instructor to be able to later deny all involvement of a promotion, even though he/she was the one who decided on the promoting action of the academy? (The main instructor at the member's academy is legit, with a lineage which checks out (Carlson Gracie>Marcus Silveira>Hermes Franca>Kurt Pellegrino>Kevin Roddy), although with some controversies (Hermes Franca convicted of having sex with a 12 year old and Franca falling out with ATT regarding the promotion of Kurt, which was also after <6y as BB and Roddy was also promoted to BB with Kurt being <6y BB, but adjusted for >6y, it makes no difference for promotions to BB by Roddy in 2019 or later))  |
The flip side of that is what happens if an instructor promotes someone to black belt, then the instructor leaves the academy and the student stays at the academy? Seems like if a student claimed to be at one academy for their entire period of training, but claimed a promotion from an instructor that was not affiliated with that academy, it might cause more questions than simply listing the academy as the promoting authority. And at some schools it truly is an academy doing the promotion. At our academy the promotions say they were done by the owner, but he has a black belt council made up of the 50+ black belts in the academy that has to unanimously approve promotions. If he suddenly chose (which I don't believe he would) to say the academy was doing the promotion it would not be incorrect. Things like this are why I base my votes on ability, not administrative minutiae. This does more or less limit me to voting for people I have personally trained with, but for the most part those are the only people I'm voting for anyway. |
"Am I really in minority thinking that only instructors and not academies can promote people? Or are everyone just afraid to get revenge voted or just have an over all reluctance to place any down votes, even if they agree that "the validity of the profile information and/or belt history" should be disputed in that a belt history stating an academy as the "Promoted by"-entity is incorrect? I was just revenge voted by this fellow https://www.beltchecker.c[...]hp?id=5362 on the issue. There are some similar points here to the "Lineage Erased?"-thread (https://www.beltchecker.c[...]ctedmenu=1). Of course, you can be disowned by an academy or team, which happened to instructor's instructor's instructor Hermes Franca, although I don't think it went so far as to Liborio and ATT claiming that any promotions that Franca would ever give out would be invalidated. Franca apparently promoted Pellegrino at the academy ATT Jupiter (in Florida), which shortly thereafter was no longer allowed to be ATT Jupiter and ATT leadership was obviously not ok with ATT Jupiter doing any BB promotions at all. So wouldn't that complicate things if Pellegrino claimed "Promoted by: ATT Jupiter"? Also, claiming an academy as "Promoted by" is really non transparent. How do we even know if the academy's main instructor was involved or ok with the promotion? Or who the main instructor was, years after the academy has disappeared from the face of the earth? The academy might even get entirely new management, who neither know of previous promotions nor see any reason to officially recognize them. Is there really any reason at all to be "Promoted by" an academy and not an instructor, besides obfuscating and/or for an instructor to be able to later deny all involvement of a promotion, even though he/she was the one who decided on the promoting action of the academy? (The main instructor at the member's academy is legit, with a lineage which checks out (Carlson Gracie>Marcus Silveira>Hermes Franca>Kurt Pellegrino>Kevin Roddy), although with some controversies (Hermes Franca convicted of having sex with a 12 year old and Franca falling out with ATT regarding the promotion of Kurt, which was also after <6y as BB and Roddy was also promoted to BB with Kurt being <6y BB, but adjusted for >6y, it makes no difference for promotions to BB by Roddy in 2019 or later))" I am pretty sure that revenge vote comment on his lineage violates that first rule of the fourm. BE NICE. |
So I have always and only trained under the Yamasaki flag and we have always done all promotions as an Academy promotion. While one individual instructor may be putting a belt around your waist, you are considered a Yamasaki black belt. When people ask my lineage, I usually just say "Yamasaki" even though I've received belts from Mario Yamasaki, Fernando Yamasaki, and Francisco Neto. |
"So I have always and only trained under the Yamasaki flag and we have always done all promotions as an Academy promotion. While one individual instructor may be putting a belt around your waist, you are considered a Yamasaki black belt. When people ask my lineage, I usually just say "Yamasaki" even though I've received belts from Mario Yamasaki, Fernando Yamasaki, and Francisco Neto.y proxy or in " Well, I could be considered an Alliance black belt, but we still both have the actual promoting instructors listed in our promotion histories on Beltchecker (so you have an up vote from me : -). Just as my students list the main promoting instructor(s) on Beltchecker, even though basically all promotions are given after input from and thumbs up from all our academies high ranked instructors. So semantically speaking, the students promoted could be called Combat Academy promoted (our academy) but I would still consider it formally incorrect on Beltchecker. Kurt, in the lineage mentioned in the original post, could semantically be called an ATT black belt, as he was promoted at an academy which was allowed to carry the name, although by a <2:nd degree BB and not with team leadership permission to promote BB:s in any kind of way. Weeks or days later, the academy was disowned by ATT and hasn't been an ATT academy since. So would you still say Kurt is a ATT black belt? And what academy black belt am I when I have the highest BJJ rank at my home academy Combat Academy but was promoted to black belt at MB Center in Finland, which I had never visited before and my instructor's academy, which I've never visited nor am a member of, is Alliance Boise in the US? I'd say I'm a Combat Academy black belt, but that doesn't really say anything about the legitimacy of my BB unless I promoted myself to BB. |
"Am I really in minority thinking that only instructors and not academies can promote people? Or are everyone just afraid to get revenge voted or just have an over all reluctance to place any down votes, even if they agree that "the validity of the profile information and/or belt history" should be disputed in that a belt history stating an academy as the "Promoted by"-entity is incorrect? I was just revenge voted by this fellow https://www.beltchecker.c[...]hp?id=5362 on the issue. There are some similar points here to the "Lineage Erased?"-thread (https://www.beltchecker.c[...]ctedmenu=1). Of course, you can be disowned by an academy or team, which happened to instructor's instructor's instructor Hermes Franca, although I don't think it went so far as to Liborio and ATT claiming that any promotions that Franca would ever give out would be invalidated. Franca apparently promoted Pellegrino at the academy ATT Jupiter (in Florida), which shortly thereafter was no longer allowed to be ATT Jupiter and ATT leadership was obviously not ok with ATT Jupiter doing any BB promotions at all. So wouldn't that complicate things if Pellegrino claimed "Promoted by: ATT Jupiter"? Also, claiming an academy as "Promoted by" is really non transparent. How do we even know if the academy's main instructor was involved or ok with the promotion? Or who the main instructor was, years after the academy has disappeared from the face of the earth? The academy might even get entirely new management, who neither know of previous promotions nor see any reason to officially recognize them. Is there really any reason at all to be "Promoted by" an academy and not an instructor, besides obfuscating and/or for an instructor to be able to later deny all involvement of a promotion, even though he/she was the one who decided on the promoting action of the academy? (The main instructor at the member's academy is legit, with a lineage which checks out (Carlson Gracie>Marcus Silveira>Hermes Franca>Kurt Pellegrino>Kevin Roddy), although with some controversies (Hermes Franca convicted of having sex with a 12 year old and Franca falling out with ATT regarding the promotion of Kurt, which was also after <6y as BB and Roddy was also promoted to BB with Kurt being <6y BB, but adjusted for >6y, it makes no difference for promotions to BB by Roddy in 2019 or later))" You use this site for a much more specific purpose than I do and it seems like most people do... I want to know the answer to one single question... are they a black belt or did they order a belt off amazon? I don't care if your instructor was a 2nd degree black belt 12 years ago when you got promoted... I took one look at this guy's profile and could tell... yep, that's a legit black belt. I was curious, so I looked up his gym, found the promoting instructor... like you did, but nothing tells me this guy is a fake black belt. It looks like he has trained for 15 years and is probably a killer. There are situations where things might not be so cut and dry... I think situations like Remco pretty clearly trying to alter history earns a downvote also. Just my 0.02 |
"You use this site for a much more specific purpose than I do and it seems like most people do... I want to know the answer to one single question... are they a black belt or did they order a belt off amazon? I don't care if your instructor was a 2nd degree black belt 12 years ago when you got promoted... I took one look at this guy's profile and could tell... yep, that's a legit black belt. I was curious, so I looked up his gym, found the promoting instructor... like you did, but nothing tells me this guy is a fake black belt. It looks like he has trained for 15 years and is probably a killer. There are situations where things might not be so cut and dry... I think situations like Remco pretty clearly trying to alter history earns a downvote also. Just my 0.02" The problem here is that is not single agreed upon defenition for black belt and how to get one. Belt checker allows people with 0% knowledge to 100000% to cast a vote. Unless we have a formal definition that this site specificly runs on I think there very little point in discussing it. When a person revenge votes you know they have not left their ego at the door. |
There's at least as many definitions of a black belt as there are people promoting. Credibility of a belt is defined bit by the amount of points and by people who give the vote. Jonah has revenge voted people who disagree with him on what defines a black belt, yet has verified people who's skill can't be determined but have a certificate to show, so in my eyes person who looks for skill before verifying does have more credibility in my eyes. Though I do think he has more credibility than some random person as he recognizes skill too, I haven't seen him downvote someone for lack of skill? I rather put myself to test by teaching and competing, so people verifying me will do it because my skill is seen or felt. Not because some random person who never saw me or rolled with me signed a paper. I think same goes for someone given black belt by an academy, might be valid, might be not, but if enough people first at an academy think someone is a black belt, and later enough people here think one is a black belt, then probably one is a black belt. |
"Jonah has revenge voted people who disagree with him on what defines a black belt" I have probably up voted hundreds of profiles for members with who I don't agree on what is required for a black belt and would also be perfectly fine with someone honestly and consistently voting based on criteria which would result in a down vote on myself. But can you point to a single person who have down voted me who has down voted even a single other member, for the same or whatever other given reason? I too think skill should be a factor, but of all colored and black belts I've ever sparred with, although some have been at a level where I myself would not have promoted them, I can't remember a single one where their level was so bad that I would call them a fake whatever their belt was. IF I started to see that, even from a legit lineage with a formally legit promoting instructor, I would absolutely not up vote promotions given by that instructor (perhaps even down vote). At least not before a change is made (e.g. as with Rener and Ryron). Wouldn't really acknowledge promotions from e.g. Jake Shield after the Moneyberg debacle. The value of a BJJ belt from a lineage can simply be devalued really quickly if the promoting instructor is willing to sell out and trade money for reputation. A bad reputation that would stick to that promoting instructor for the rest of his or her life, which should be a deterrence. But the reputation of an academy, which no one might have even heard of or which carries the name of a famous team like ATT or Gracie Barra but where that affiliation can be dropped over night without consequence to the team? And without consequence to anyone involved in the specific academy, since everyone can duck and cover and claim they were never responsible for the promotion in the first place, only "the academy" was. |
""Jonah has revenge voted people who disagree with him on what defines a black belt" I have probably up voted hundreds of profiles for members with who I don't agree on what is required for a black belt and would also be perfectly fine with someone honestly and consistently voting based on criteria which would result in a down vote on myself. But can you point to a single person who have down voted me who has down voted even a single other member, for the same or whatever other given reason? I too think skill should be a factor, but of all colored and black belts I've ever sparred with, although some have been at a level where I myself would not have promoted them, I can't remember a single one where their level was so bad that I would call them a fake whatever their belt was. IF I started to see that, even from a legit lineage with a formally legit promoting instructor, I would absolutely not up vote promotions given by that instructor (perhaps even down vote). At least not before a change is made (e.g. as with Rener and Ryron). Wouldn't really acknowledge promotions from e.g. Jake Shield after the Moneyberg debacle. The value of a BJJ belt from a lineage can simply be devalued really quickly if the promoting instructor is willing to sell out and trade money for reputation. A bad reputation that would stick to that promoting instructor for the rest of his or her life, which should be a deterrence. But the reputation of an academy, which no one might have even heard of or which carries the name of a famous team like ATT or Gracie Barra but where that affiliation can be dropped over night without consequence to the team? And without consequence to anyone involved in the specific academy, since everyone can duck and cover and claim they were never responsible for the promotion in the first place, only "the academy" was." Sorry for misspelling your name. I do think revenge voting does harm beltchecker, but in my opinion so does downvoting a skilled person based on wrong promoter, as it might cause people not register here for fear of being called out despite being skilled in jiu-jitsu. And after that people under him will also think it's not worth it. Belt is only someone's measurement of a skill on some point of time, at least for most of us. If someone is being downvoted because of behavior or character, it's as valid reason to downvote as any other reason. In today's world learning isn't depending on who's your teacher. I don't think I could find out if person who downvoted you are consistent with their voting, would be interesting to find out, but unfortunately I don't have time for that. But if you get downvotes due to someone feeling bullied, can't blame them. Up voting people you think skill wise are sub par definitely does not help here. |
"Sorry for misspelling your name. I do think revenge voting does harm beltchecker, but in my opinion so does downvoting a skilled person based on wrong promoter, as it might cause people not register here for fear of being called out despite being skilled in jiu-jitsu. And after that people under him will also think it's not worth it. Belt is only someone's measurement of a skill on some point of time, at least for most of us. If someone is being downvoted because of behavior or character, it's as valid reason to downvote as any other reason. In today's world learning isn't depending on who's your teacher. I don't think I could find out if person who downvoted you are consistent with their voting, would be interesting to find out, but unfortunately I don't have time for that. But if you get downvotes due to someone feeling bullied, can't blame them. Up voting people you think skill wise are sub par definitely does not help here." Everyone here is allowed to establish their own criteria for voting. Although I disagree with a lot of Johan's reasoning, I respect his right to exercise his own criteria. Unortunately, not every member here gets to roll with every other member here to objectively evaluate their skill level. That means we have to reliy on indirect measurement of skill via lineage. In the event the dots don't line up and the lineage isn't well defined there is no way to legitimize the skill without rolling with the person. Johan places a high value on the dots lining up. Others don't. But accountability for a solid lineage is something I can support. |
I don't think you need to roll with person to know if they are good or not, and actually rolling can be very bad indicator as you don't know what lead to the moment when rolling. Watching video footage is way better. It is difficult to differentiate between excellent competing purple belt to average black belt, but in most cases watching 2 black belts rolling does tell something about skill. I don't need to roll with these guys to see both are skilled. https://youtu.be/osrwOv4q[...]ew2aKvBpcw |
"Sorry for misspelling your name. I do think revenge voting does harm beltchecker, but in my opinion so does downvoting a skilled person based on wrong promoter, as it might cause people not register here for fear of being called out despite being skilled in jiu-jitsu. And after that people under him will also think it's not worth it. Belt is only someone's measurement of a skill on some point of time, at least for most of us. If someone is being downvoted because of behavior or character, it's as valid reason to downvote as any other reason. In today's world learning isn't depending on who's your teacher. I don't think I could find out if person who downvoted you are consistent with their voting, would be interesting to find out, but unfortunately I don't have time for that. But if you get downvotes due to someone feeling bullied, can't blame them. Up voting people you think skill wise are sub par definitely does not help here." So lets say i downvoted a certain person because of his online behaviour, for example, negative comments to someone a day after he receives his BB and making that person feel bad. And then that person downvotes me, would that be revenge voting? yay for hypocrisy! the rules only count for OTHER people. |
"I don't think you need to roll with person to know if they are good or not, and actually rolling can be very bad indicator as you don't know what lead to the moment when rolling. Watching video footage is way better. It is difficult to differentiate between excellent competing purple belt to average black belt, but in most cases watching 2 black belts rolling does tell something about skill. I don't need to roll with these guys to see both are skilled. https://youtu.be/osrwOv4q[...]ew2aKvBpcw" I have rolled with both and can confirm your hypothesis. :) |
"So lets say i downvoted a certain person because of his online behaviour, for example, negative comments to someone a day after he receives his BB and making that person feel bad. And then that person downvotes me, would that be revenge voting? yay for hypocrisy! the rules only count for OTHER people." Hypothetically speaking then, as you wouldn't stand for it but instead claim your down vote for "online behaviour" was for "Not enough evidence", despite even a BB promotion video featuring the founders of Alliance? Then refusing to answer what evidence you claim is missing. Then not wanting to specify which "people" (or single person?) you are upset that received a down vote or discuss the validity of the presented facts behind that down vote. Then not wanting to stand for your online behaviour at all, deleting all your parts of the discussion. I would hope we members of Beltchecker should at least be able to agree on that belts should be checked here. And that the Beltcheckers wording when placing a down vote is "Are you sure that you want to dispute the validity of the profile information and/or belt history for [the member]". Not "Are you sure that [member] won't feel bad that you point out the fact that his belt history is obviously not valid, as the promoting instructor himself has admitted to not having any belt at all in BJJ when [member] claims to have received the first promotion from him?"  |
"Well, I could be considered an Alliance black belt, but we still both have the actual promoting instructors listed in our promotion histories on Beltchecker (so you have an up vote from me : -). Just as my students list the main promoting instructor(s) on Beltchecker, even though basically all promotions are given after input from and thumbs up from all our academies high ranked instructors. So semantically speaking, the students promoted could be called Combat Academy promoted (our academy) but I would still consider it formally incorrect on Beltchecker. e legitimacy of my BB unless I promoted myself to BB." I understand that point. But I could have also put ANY of the Black Belts who were standing at the top in 2010 for any of my promotions, or just said "Mario Yamasaki" for all of them since he was the only Black Belt at the time when I started training in 1998. The only reason I put individual names was because I wanted it to match up to the picture. Hell, I wouldn't have even remembered if not for the pictures (except my promotion to Black Belt which was from Francisco Neto who gave me his belt which was a HUGE honor). I guess, technically, all promotions are ultimately approved by the highest ranking Yamasaki Academy person which is Fernando Yamasaki at 7th degree. |
I've always came up from the understanding that the person tying the belt around your waist is the person you're a black belt under. Not the academy.The academy name can change and come & go. The academy doesn't tie the belt round your wait. It's an inanimate object that has no bearing on your skill development and growth. It can't tie the belt around your wait. Now , if you say, well, without the academy, you wouldn't have a place to grow and develop. Well, you can train out of a garage and be promoted in your garage. Would you be your garage black belt? Particular circumstances I've been in with my affiliates is having one of my black belts proxy a promotion. I, for what ever reason, am not able to do the promotion, I would have one of my black belts do the promotion and tie the belt around the students waist. They would be my black belt. Not the person that tied the belt. To me, you are a black belt under the person that tied the belt around your waist. Not an inanimate object like an academy. To me, it's like saying god gave you your black belt. Just my 2 cents. |
"I've always came up from the understanding that the person tying the belt around your waist is the person you're a black belt under. Not the academy.The academy name can change and come & go. The academy doesn't tie the belt round your wait. It's an inanimate object that has no bearing on your skill development and growth. It can't tie the belt around your wait. Now , if you say, well, without the academy, you wouldn't have a place to grow and develop. Well, you can train out of a garage and be promoted in your garage. Would you be your garage black belt? Particular circumstances I've been in with my affiliates is having one of my black belts proxy a promotion. I, for what ever reason, am not able to do the promotion, I would have one of my black belts do the promotion and tie the belt around the students waist. They would be my black belt. Not the person that tied the belt. To me, you are a black belt under the person that tied the belt around your waist. Not an inanimate object like an academy. To me, it's like saying god gave you your black belt. Just my 2 cents." I get that as well. Again, it's why I listed mine out even on the degress. But, for example, recently Fernando Yamasaki promoted his son to brown belt and they gave him Dave Jacobs brown belt (he was the first American Yamasaki Black Belt and passed away a few years ago). When they put it on him, Fernando, Mario, Neto and Shigeru Yamaski (Judo kudan) all tied it together on him. So that's the type of situation where it gets tricky to say who gave it to you. |
"Am I really in minority thinking that only instructors and not academies can promote people? Or are everyone just afraid to get revenge voted or just have an over all reluctance to place any down votes, even if they agree that "the validity of the profile information and/or belt history" should be disputed in that a belt history stating an academy as the "Promoted by"-entity is incorrect? I was just revenge voted by this fellow https://www.beltchecker.c[...]hp?id=5362 on the issue. There are some similar points here to the "Lineage Erased?"-thread (https://www.beltchecker.c[...]ctedmenu=1). Of course, you can be disowned by an academy or team, which happened to instructor's instructor's instructor Hermes Franca, although I don't think it went so far as to Liborio and ATT claiming that any promotions that Franca would ever give out would be invalidated. Franca apparently promoted Pellegrino at the academy ATT Jupiter (in Florida), which shortly thereafter was no longer allowed to be ATT Jupiter and ATT leadership was obviously not ok with ATT Jupiter doing any BB promotions at all. So wouldn't that complicate things if Pellegrino claimed "Promoted by: ATT Jupiter"? Also, claiming an academy as "Promoted by" is really non transparent. How do we even know if the academy's main instructor was involved or ok with the promotion? Or who the main instructor was, years after the academy has disappeared from the face of the earth? The academy might even get entirely new management, who neither know of previous promotions nor see any reason to officially recognize them. Is there really any reason at all to be "Promoted by" an academy and not an instructor, besides obfuscating and/or for an instructor to be able to later deny all involvement of a promotion, even though he/she was the one who decided on the promoting action of the academy? (The main instructor at the member's academy is legit, with a lineage which checks out (Carlson Gracie>Marcus Silveira>Hermes Franca>Kurt Pellegrino>Kevin Roddy), although with some controversies (Hermes Franca convicted of having sex with a 12 year old and Franca falling out with ATT regarding the promotion of Kurt, which was also after <6y as BB and Roddy was also promoted to BB with Kurt being <6y BB, but adjusted for >6y, it makes no difference for promotions to BB by Roddy in 2019 or later))" I will present a few points to consider: 1. Apprenticeship models are models that throughout history have been classic ways of transmitting knowledge, affirming presumption of quality, etc. 2. Just because one method exists, does not preclude other competing methods, which may have advantages or disadvantages to other models. a) There have been promotions historically, by the Confederation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and other Brasil Federations. (1) Admittedly these were often: (i) pre-competition promotions to allow a known competitor to compete in a venue with belt rank divisions, or (ii) post-competition promotions, similar to Judo Batsugan promotions, or (iii) post-death promotions to recognize someone's contributions to the sport, art, or community. (2) Many different types of martial sports and martials arts do this, so more precedent. 3. In broader education, it is usually the institutions, and organizations that confer degrees, signed off on by instructors qualified by that organization, and by the external accreditors, that institution affiliates with, as its external accreditor. 4. In summary, there remains room for competing methods. In fact, there are advantages to competing methods that probably outweigh the noise, and inefficiencies, that allowing for competing methods also produces as by-product. We should remain skeptical of everything, but also conversely retain an open mind to competing methods that may still produce useful results. |
"I will present a few points to consider: 1. Apprenticeship models are models that throughout history have been classic ways of transmitting knowledge, affirming presumption of quality, etc. 2. Just because one method exists, does not preclude other competing methods, which may have advantages or disadvantages to other models. a) There have been promotions historically, by the Confederation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and other Brasil Federations. (1) Admittedly these were often: (i) pre-competition promotions to allow a known competitor to compete in a venue with belt rank divisions, or (ii) post-competition promotions, similar to Judo Batsugan promotions, or (iii) post-death promotions to recognize someone's contributions to the sport, art, or community. (2) Many different types of martial sports and martials arts do this, so more precedent. 3. In broader education, it is usually the institutions, and organizations that confer degrees, signed off on by instructors qualified by that organization, and by the external accreditors, that institution affiliates with, as its external accreditor. 4. In summary, there remains room for competing methods. In fact, there are advantages to competing methods that probably outweigh the noise, and inefficiencies, that allowing for competing methods also produces as by-product. We should remain skeptical of everything, but also conversely retain an open mind to competing methods that may still produce useful results." What he said. |
"I get that as well. Again, it's why I listed mine out even on the degress. But, for example, recently Fernando Yamasaki promoted his son to brown belt and they gave him Dave Jacobs brown belt (he was the first American Yamasaki Black Belt and passed away a few years ago). When they put it on him, Fernando, Mario, Neto and Shigeru Yamaski (Judo kudan) all tied it together on him. So that's the type of situation where it gets tricky to say who gave it to you." Very true! |
"I get that as well. Again, it's why I listed mine out even on the degress. But, for example, recently Fernando Yamasaki promoted his son to brown belt and they gave him Dave Jacobs brown belt (he was the first American Yamasaki Black Belt and passed away a few years ago). When they put it on him, Fernando, Mario, Neto and Shigeru Yamaski (Judo kudan) all tied it together on him. So that's the type of situation where it gets tricky to say who gave it to you." Is it really more tricky to say all three or four persons awarded the belt (like you listed three promoting instructors on your BB) who awarded the belt than writing the academy where the promotion took place instead of the instructors? The academy could even be the promoted persons own academy or an academy which neither the promoted or the promoters have any connection to - it's just a large enough venue for a big seminar. Listing the three(?) academies of the three promoting instructors is of course less specific than listing the instructors themselves. Listing several instructors also has the advantage of increasing acceptance of some of them being <2:nd degree BB or even deceased (but who have put in most of the time in developing the new BB). Transparency is king and extra letters in the promotion history is free, so it's even possible to write ten instructors together with their degrees and academies. |
"Is it really more tricky to say all three or four persons awarded the belt (like you listed three promoting instructors on your BB) who awarded the belt than writing the academy where the promotion took place instead of the instructors? The academy could even be the promoted persons own academy or an academy which neither the promoted or the promoters have any connection to - it's just a large enough venue for a big seminar. Listing the three(?) academies of the three promoting instructors is of course less specific than listing the instructors themselves. Listing several instructors also has the advantage of increasing acceptance of some of them being <2:nd degree BB or even deceased (but who have put in most of the time in developing the new BB). Transparency is king and extra letters in the promotion history is free, so it's even possible to write ten instructors together with their degrees and academies." I just did a promotions ceremony two weeks ago and tied belts on kids and teens who I've never met in my life. It's done to save time because there were probably 150 kids getting promoted. Should they say they got it from me and not Fernando or you wouldn't approve their promotion? Because for sure those kids should NOT list that they were promoted by me. To me this is one of those situations where not all gyms follow the same protocols and procedures. And because it's not one you like or are familiar with it's automatically "bad". I think that's a common problem in our community as well as many others. |
"I just did a promotions ceremony two weeks ago and tied belts on kids and teens who I've never met in my life. It's done to save time because there were probably 150 kids getting promoted. Should they say they got it from me and not Fernando or you wouldn't approve their promotion? Because for sure those kids should NOT list that they were promoted by me. To me this is one of those situations where not all gyms follow the same protocols and procedures. And because it's not one you like or are familiar with it's automatically "bad". I think that's a common problem in our community as well as many others." Would be tricky in any case to present evidence when you're a kid getting promoted along with 150ish other kids, no matter who tied the belt (although a diploma or group pic FB promotion post from Fernando could do it). Not that I ever think I've down voted a kids belt. For the "most mattering belts" (original BB especially), I've never seen anyone have that problem. |
