Pulling Guard In Competition?
3 week(s) ago • 508 views • 22 replies
I’ve never allowed my students to pull guard—whether in class or in competition. I’m not from a Judo or Wrestling background, but I’ve always believed you should at least attempt a legitimate takedown first. If it doesn’t work or your opponent defends well, then transition or roll into guard. From the videos I’ve seen lately, it looks like a lot of people are getting injured during guard pulls. Do you think tournaments will make changes to their rules to reduce these kinds of injuries? Thank you. |
There was a good discussion on this topic a few weeks ago: https://www.beltchecker.c[...]in%20forum |
I don’t think guard pulls are particularly dangerous. Guard jumps, on the other hand, can lead to some nasty injuries, I’ve seen it happen. At my gym, we usually dominate the stand-up exchanges and takedown battles. Still, I allow guard pulls because they’re a legitimate strategy in BJJ, whether people like them or not. |
"I don’t think guard pulls are particularly dangerous. Guard jumps, on the other hand, can lead to some nasty injuries, I’ve seen it happen. At my gym, we usually dominate the stand-up exchanges and takedown battles. Still, I allow guard pulls because they’re a legitimate strategy in BJJ, whether people like them or not." I agree sir. As a long-time judoka, I want the takedown - but this is my personality. But if I attempt a combination and it doesn't work or I feel like I am on the losing side I will pull guard. |
I believe the athlete should do whatever they feel is the best chance to win or acheive whatever goal they have for that competition. They should have a game plan to get to that goal. They also need to have a back up plan depending on who is standing in front of them. I remember back in the day (okay, like 2002 as much as that pains me to say) when Jeff Monson used to compete a lot in the local (East Coast) Grapplers Quest and NAGA tournaments. Here was an ADCC Champion wrestler going up against middle aged blue belt weekend warriors and NOT holding back. So in cases like that, I would recommend pulling guard instead of pretending that you have any chance of staying alive for long if you don't. |
I would very much like to see jumping guard be declared illegal since I know too many folks who have suffered serious injuries as a result. I don't like guard pulls in general, and we actively discourage them at our school. I teach defense against standard guard pulls, and we also teach judo and wrestling take downs so that the students have good alternatives to guard pulls. I doubt, however, that they will ever be deemed illegal in competition. |
"I would very much like to see jumping guard be declared illegal since I know too many folks who have suffered serious injuries as a result. I don't like guard pulls in general, and we actively discourage them at our school. I teach defense against standard guard pulls, and we also teach judo and wrestling take downs so that the students have good alternatives to guard pulls. I doubt, however, that they will ever be deemed illegal in competition." Do you feel that even at the black belt level jumping guard should be illegal? As someone who wrestles and is also a black belt in judo, I definitely prefer going for the takedown, but I will pull guard eventually if I am outclassed and the match is stagnating. With that being said, I personally wouldn't jump guard, but I don't necessarily think that it should be banned. |
"I would very much like to see jumping guard be declared illegal since I know too many folks who have suffered serious injuries as a result. I don't like guard pulls in general, and we actively discourage them at our school. I teach defense against standard guard pulls, and we also teach judo and wrestling take downs so that the students have good alternatives to guard pulls. I doubt, however, that they will ever be deemed illegal in competition." I tend to agree with this as well. I'm fine with pulling guard, but jumping guard to just asking for injuries. |
"Do you feel that even at the black belt level jumping guard should be illegal? As someone who wrestles and is also a black belt in judo, I definitely prefer going for the takedown, but I will pull guard eventually if I am outclassed and the match is stagnating. With that being said, I personally wouldn't jump guard, but I don't necessarily think that it should be banned." Absolutely. Most of the people I've seen with serious injuries from jumping guard are black belts who got injured in competition from their opponent jumping guard. In many ways it's very similar to Kani Besami. |
"I would very much like to see jumping guard be declared illegal since I know too many folks who have suffered serious injuries as a result. I don't like guard pulls in general, and we actively discourage them at our school. I teach defense against standard guard pulls, and we also teach judo and wrestling take downs so that the students have good alternatives to guard pulls. I doubt, however, that they will ever be deemed illegal in competition." Jumping full guard is usually illegal for white belts these days. |
"I believe the athlete should do whatever they feel is the best chance to win or acheive whatever goal they have for that competition. They should have a game plan to get to that goal. They also need to have a back up plan depending on who is standing in front of them. I remember back in the day (okay, like 2002 as much as that pains me to say) when Jeff Monson used to compete a lot in the local (East Coast) Grapplers Quest and NAGA tournaments. Here was an ADCC Champion wrestler going up against middle aged blue belt weekend warriors and NOT holding back. So in cases like that, I would recommend pulling guard instead of pretending that you have any chance of staying alive for long if you don't." My against Jefff Monson I would just sit down. No point deduction. In present rule set I think. |
"As a judoka, I feel honor-bound to go for a solid throw like uchi-mata or o-soto-gari. If that doesn’t work, I go for a throw like tomoe-nage or sumi-gaeshi… which at my age might just turn into a guard pull depending on how much kuzushi I was able to generate. :)" My 14 year old daughter's wrestling coach said she used a Judo throw in her last wrestling tournament. I don't know what it is called in Judo. Both use a gable grip around the body one in front one from the back. From the front my daughter's right leg takes out from the out side her opponent's right leg. From the back she basically does a hip throw but from the back. They didnt look pretty but did the job. Seems like the throws work well now that she has a decent double and single leg. |
"I’ve never allowed my students to pull guard—whether in class or in competition. I’m not from a Judo or Wrestling background, but I’ve always believed you should at least attempt a legitimate takedown first. If it doesn’t work or your opponent defends well, then transition or roll into guard. From the videos I’ve seen lately, it looks like a lot of people are getting injured during guard pulls. Do you think tournaments will make changes to their rules to reduce these kinds of injuries? Thank you." I am the same, I feel like you should at least attempt the points, if you lose it and or get taken down at least your opponent earned the points and they learned something. I did do a lot of research, I'm a data scientist, and the outcome of a match is almost 50/50 between guard pullers and those who get takedowns. So there is no statistical advantage or disadvantage to pulling guard with the numbers I had available at the time. Saying that, my school is very pressure focused so the numbers for my school were outliers and it was for sure an advantage to get a take down. |
Tyler, I appreciate your scientific approach to this issue. Nice work! The way I see it, throwing has several advantages over guard-pulling: (1) Throws earn two points. Guard pulls earn zero points and put one’s opponent in a position where they can pass guard to earn three points. Sure, it’s possible to sweep from guard to get two points, but that’s often challenging against a good opponent. (2) Most judo throws are explosive, so they physically and psychologically shock one’s opponent. A throw that would have earned ippon in judo is going to sting, particularly if the receiver doesn’t have great ukemi. (The same could be said for wrestling takedowns, but I’m a judo guy, not a wrestler, so I’m sticking with what I know.) (3) Most judo throws land you on top of your opponent and outside of their guard so you don’t have to pass. Guard-pulling puts you on your back with your opponent on top. This is important in sport grappling, but even more critical for those of us interested in MMA or self-defense, where striking makes guard a less advantageous position. (4) Finally, I want to be a well-rounded martial artist. I want to make sure that my stand-up game is as good as my ground game. That way, if I’m up against someone who is much better on the ground, I can focus on dominating the clinch game to make sure that when we do hit the ground, I’ll be in a top position. As a result, I don’t pull guard and I teach my students to not pull guard unless (a) they have to recover from a botched throw attempt or (b) they have a submission locked in that they need to finish on the ground (e.g., a guillotine choke). I know that some people are very successful with guard-pulling, but it’s not my style. |
"I did do a lot of research, I'm a data scientist, and the outcome of a match is almost 50/50 between guard pullers and those who get takedowns. So there is no statistical advantage or disadvantage to pulling guard with the numbers I had available at the time." Where did you get the data for this one? |
"There was a good discussion on this topic a few weeks ago: https://www.beltchecker.c[...]in%20forum" *Tried to post this a few times now, but it's being glitchy, so I'm going to try again with just one link* Strictly speaking of sport BJJ, it's hard to deny the strategic advantages of pulling guard. I think there are several reasons you're 8 times more likely to see guard pulls vs takedowns in the IBJJF black belt division (per gold bjj: https://goldbjj.com/blogs[...]0effective.): 1) It gives you more options; you can always theoretically just stand up again without losing points, but the passer isn't able to do play guard without giving up points first. Also, you are in the position to sweep/submit, while your opponent is pretty much just trying to pass. 2) You can train with more specificity: if your strategy is just to pull guard, you can just train all day for ground exchanges, and not worry about training in a position you'll only be in for a matter of seconds. 3) It's easier to stall: while the IBJJF has cracked down, at least to some degree, on 50/50 guard and lapel shenanigans, there are still tons of ways to stall. 4) fighting on the feet is so, so tiring. If you need all the energy you can get for a 10 minute match, you're more likely to burn way more on the feet than on the ground. 5) In the event of a decision/ stalemate, the guard puller is more likely to get the W, as they made the first move. Of course there are good reasons not to pull guard in most self-defense scenarios, but if we're just talking about sport BJJ, you need to pay attention to what the best of the best are doing in sport jiu-jitsu (in an IBJJF rule set). |
Last one. A very good read on the topic from George Andersch, an Amal Easton BB: https://fargobjj.com/286-[...]lly%20wins. |
"Last one. A very good read on the topic from George Andersch, an Amal Easton BB: https://fargobjj.com/286-[...]lly%20wins." Thank you for sharing. That was a very good read. |
